From bell@uswest.com Tue Jul 25 16:25:13 EST 1995 Article: 5394 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5394 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!metro!OzEmail!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.netkonect.net!news.sprintlink.net!cherokee!uswest.com!bell From: bell@uswest.com (George Bell) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: 7 Jul 1995 15:36:41 GMT Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3tjka9$34i@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.13.21.31 Keywords: lead fall multi pitch unconscious In article , ccschase@cnj.digex.net (Corporate Computer Systems) writes: > I've always thought about what might happen if I fell on a large remote > cliff and became unconscious. My wife, a non-leader, would then be left > with the lump (me) on the other end of a rope five pitches up and two > more to go. What to do? I never really been able to figure out a good > way for her to get the both of us out without some real big risks. I > always use two nines on a climb like this, and would think the extra > rope would benefit. Anybody have any ideas? This has actually happened to me (partner knocked unconscious in a fall). This is a serious situation, and perhaps the best thing is to avoid it by wearing a helmet. If you still find yourself in this situation, it probably means your partner has sustained a serious head injury. It is very difficult, if not downright impossible, to get an unconscious person down a cliff singlehandedly (if your partner is a 90 lb sport climber you might do it!). Depending on where you are, your best options are probably trying to contact other climbers or hikers in the area, and as a last resort if your partner is stable you might consider rapping off alone and running out to get help. Oh yeah, in my case, I lowered my unconscious partner to a ledge at my level. Then I tied the anchor off, clipped into a runner attached to the lead line and ran over to his aid. Fortunately, he came to shortly after I reached him and in a few minutes was feeling well enough to reclimb the pitch to take out all the pro. He survived with only minor abrasions. -George From oconnord@ucsu.Colorado.EDU Tue Jul 25 16:25:51 EST 1995 Article: 6113 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:6113 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!metro!news.cs.su.oz.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!boulder!ucsu.Colorado.EDU!oconnord From: Darren O'Connor Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:28:26 -0600 Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsu.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: On 7 Jul 1995, Corporate Computer Systems wrote: > I've always thought about what might happen if I fell on a large remote > cliff and became unconscious. My wife, a non-leader, would then be left > with the lump (me) on the other end of a rope five pitches up and two > more to go. What to do? I never really been able to figure out a good > way for her to get the both of us out without some real big risks. I > always use two nines on a climb like this, and would think the extra > rope would benefit. Anybody have any ideas? > > Daren Eilert My first advice--take a rescue course! Barring that, here's a few things to learn that are simple and effective: Learn some knots: 1. The Muenter Hitch 2. The Mule (Blocking) Knot 3. The Single Ended Prussik If you play with these at home, you can probably figure out how they can be used to escape the belay, allowing the belayer to decide what to do next, including going down for help. Remember, though, the initial period is vital in the case of many injuries--I'd again suggest taking a rescue course. I found the knowledge, which I'll hopefully never have to use, to be simply attained. Good luck! Darren o/ /O/\ / P.S: Can anyone suggest a good book on vertical rescue? From batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu Tue Jul 25 16:26:21 EST 1995 Article: 5424 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5424 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!its.csiro.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.cerf.net!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news From: batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu (Jeff Batten) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: 10 Jul 1995 16:01:04 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: borrego.gps.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ In article , Darren O'Connor says: > > > >On 7 Jul 1995, Corporate Computer Systems wrote: > >> I've always thought about what might happen if I fell on a large remote >> cliff and became unconscious. My wife, a non-leader, would then be left >> with the lump (me) on the other end of a rope five pitches up and two >> more to go. What to do? I never really been able to figure out a good >> way for her to get the both of us out without some real big risks. I >> always use two nines on a climb like this, and would think the extra >> rope would benefit. Anybody have any ideas? >> >> Daren Eilert > >My first advice--take a rescue course! Barring that, here's a few things >to learn that are simple and effective: > > Learn some knots: > > 1. The Muenter Hitch > 2. The Mule (Blocking) Knot > 3. The Single Ended Prussik > >If you play with these at home, you can probably figure out how they can >be used to escape the belay, allowing the belayer to decide what to do >next, including going down for help. Remember, though, the initial >period is vital in the case of many injuries--I'd again suggest taking a >rescue course. I found the knowledge, which I'll hopefully never have to >use, to be simply attained. > >Good luck! >Darren Let's say the leader is 130 ft out when the accident happens. The leader cannot be lowered back to the belay. The leader is hurt real bad- unconscious. What to do? Do you just tie the leader off and go for help with him (her) hanging upside down? What I guess I would do is rope solo up to the leader and try to stabilize them first. This is where a extra rope would come in handy. Does anyone have any input on the best way to do this kind of rescue. Jeff From paulwolf@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 25 16:26:30 EST 1995 Article: 5466 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5466 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!its.csiro.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: paulwolf@ix.netcom.com (Paul Wolf ) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: 10 Jul 1995 20:09:12 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3ts1d8$7lm@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-den11-28.ix.netcom.com In <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu> batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu (Jeff Batten) writes: > >Let's say the leader is 130 ft out when the accident happens. The >leader cannot be lowered back to the belay. The leader is hurt real >bad-unconscious. What to do? Do you just tie the leader off and go for >help with him (her) hanging upside down? What I guess I would do is >rope solo up to the leader and try to stabilize them first. This is >where a extra rope would come in handy. Does anyone have any input on >the best way to do this kind of rescue. OK, here's a story that's not very nice. Someone I know was climbing a multipitch route when a lightning storm developed. My friend was the belayer, and was out of sight of the leader. The leader didn't move after about 30 minutes, and the weather was *very* violent. My friend didn't seem to have a belay, or a way down. So he tied him off, made a self-belay, probably with a muntner hitch, hoping the leader's end was also fixed. It was, and the leader was dead, struck by lightning. My friend took the ropes and rapped down. So one possibility would be to climb/aid the route, using a self belay, and your partner as a counterweight to fix the rope. This is *obviously* a dangerous thing to do, but I think you have to, because your partner might need immediate help (eg. blood loss). Of course, this would only apply if your partner were unconscious and more than halfway out. Sorry about the depressing story, but it seemed relevant. From jbean10049@aol.com Tue Jul 25 16:28:03 EST 1995 Article: 5452 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5452 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!its.csiro.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!news.kei.com!newshost.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jbean10049@aol.com (JBean10049) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: 10 Jul 1995 17:54:51 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 19 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3ts7jb$2ue@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Reply-To: jbean10049@aol.com (JBean10049) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com TAKE A SELF-RESCUE COURSE. Don't rack your brain trying to reinvent the wheel. I suggest a AMGA certified instructor. How do I know this? I just took one two weeks ago. These are the steps if your don't beleive me 1 escape the anchor 2 prussik to the leader 3 build an anchor 4 secure the leader and you to the anchor 5 do a counter balance rap until you need another anchor 6 do it all again note: never off the anchor, never in a dangerous situation I cannot stress the importance of that class From jmccoy@dow.com Tue Jul 25 16:29:06 EST 1995 Article: 5566 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5566 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!crux.rp.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!its.csiro.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!lll-winken.llnl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!attila.dow.com!md41236.md.dow.com!u079500 From: jmccoy@dow.com (Mad Dog) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 06:46:48 GMT Organization: The Dow Chemical Company Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: na1.dow.com X-Newsreader: VersaTerm Link v1.1.5 In Article <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu (Jeff Batten) wrote: >Let's say the leader is 130 ft out when the accident happens. The leader >cannot be lowered back to the belay. The leader is hurt real bad- >unconscious. What to do? Do you just tie the leader off and go for help >with him (her) hanging upside down? What I guess I would do is rope >solo up to the leader and try to stabilize them first. This is where a >extra rope would come in handy. Does anyone have any input on the best >way to do this kind of rescue. One possibility: (assuming there's nobody else around to help and you're well off the ground on a multipitch route) 1) Escape the belay with prusics, ascenders or slings (you do take SOMETHING with you on a multipitch to escape the belay, don't you?). 2) Climb/aid up to the leader. You can protect yourself with your ascenders on the lead rope but then you're relying on the leader's pro to be able to hold both of you, etc. If you have a second rope, you can use it also. Do what makes best sense with the gear you have with you. 3) Set a belay at or above the fallen leader and anchor both of you. 4) Do first aid and if possible (and if the leader's condition allows it), get him/her to a comfortable ledge and set an anchor there. This can be physical and difficult. You can rap with a person slung to the biner your belay device is clipped into, like some folks rap with a heavy pack. Then you can use your legs/body to direct theirs to some degree. 5) Decision time. Do you go for help or stay with the injured and try to yell and get someone's attention? I await numerous flames on this one. There are many variatons to the theme. It is important to get to the leader fast, as long as you can keep it together and not hurt yourself in the process. Experiencing such a rescue can be grisly and can lead to a rethinking of what is "necessary" gear for a multipitch route. JMc From batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu Tue Jul 25 16:31:05 EST 1995 Article: 5600 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5600 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!crux.rp.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!its.csiro.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news From: batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu (Jeff Batten) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: 11 Jul 1995 15:44:22 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology Lines: 61 Message-ID: <3tu68m$9di@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: borrego.gps.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ In article , jmccoy@dow.com (Mad Dog) says: > >In Article <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu >(Jeff Batten) wrote: >>Let's say the leader is 130 ft out when the accident happens. The leader >>cannot be lowered back to the belay. The leader is hurt real bad- >>unconscious. What to do? Do you just tie the leader off and go for help >>with him (her) hanging upside down? What I guess I would do is rope >>solo up to the leader and try to stabilize them first. This is where a >>extra rope would come in handy. Does anyone have any input on the best >>way to do this kind of rescue. > >One possibility: (assuming there's nobody else around to help and you're >well off the ground on a multipitch route) 1) Escape the belay with >prusics, ascenders or slings (you do take SOMETHING with you on a multipitch >to escape the belay, don't you?). Yes-That along with my Stallone Gun. 2) Climb/aid up to the leader. You can >protect yourself with your ascenders on the lead rope but then you're >relying on the leader's pro to be able to hold both of you, etc. If you >have a second rope, you can use it also. Do what makes best sense with the >gear you have with you. If you have a second rope you can use it as a belay clipping the leaders pro-use a girth hitch and tie backup knots. How many climbers carry jugs on long free routes. It is probally a good idea- If the weather gets bad or a accident occurs- it can really make the difference. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE A SECOND ROPE IMNSHO on Multi. > 3) Set a belay at or above the fallen leader and >anchor both of you. > 4) Do first aid and if possible (and if the leader's >condition allows it), get him/her to a comfortable ledge and set an anchor >there. This can be physical and difficult. Also- If you are going to leave a injured climber tie them in so well that they cannot untie themselves. Climbers with head injuries have beeen know to fight their rescuers and untie their anchors. > You can rap with a person slung >to the biner your belay device is clipped into, like some folks rap with a >heavy pack. Then you can use your legs/body to direct theirs to some >degree. I have done this with a 100lb pig- I am sure it would work with a 170lb climber. Has anyone on the net used this method in a actual rescue? Remember if the climber has a head injury (neck) this is out of the question-unless you are on K2 and have to get down no matter what. > 5) Decision time. Do you go for help or stay with the injured and >try to yell and get someone's attention? > Sometimes you have to go for help. Better to yell for help if you can. Jeff From jbargo@carsinfo.com Tue Jul 25 16:31:15 EST 1995 Article: 6153 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:6153 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!dmssyd.syd.dms.CSIRO.AU!its.csiro.au!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!news1.oakland.edu!news.concourse.com!ragnarok.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!jbargo From: jbargo@carsinfo.com (Jerry Bargo) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: 13 Jul 1995 17:11:32 GMT Organization: OARnet Lines: 43 Message-ID: <3u3k44$88@ns.oar.net> References: <3tris0$mls@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: carshp.carsinfo.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] : Let's say the leader is 130 ft out when the accident happens. The leader : cannot be lowered back to the belay. The leader is hurt real bad- : unconscious. What to do? Do you just tie the leader off and go for help : with him (her) hanging upside down? What I guess I would do is rope : solo up to the leader and try to stabilize them first. This is where a : extra rope would come in handy. Does anyone have any input on the best : way to do this kind of rescue. This is one of the more valuable recurring threads this group ever sees... There has been an encouraging volume of intelligent response: * Take a self-rescue course * Practice those skills regularly * Have the knowledge and the means to escape a belay and ascend a rope I would suggest that it may frequently be quicker to ascend the leader's rope than to attempt a roped solo (climbing or aiding). It is a common misunderstanding that this practice would effectively double the load on the top piece of protection. The static load on that piece is going to be roughly twice the weight of the leader whether you are ascending the other end of that rope or not. This assumes that the climbers are of approximately equal weight and disregards the bouncing effect introduced by your ascending. Part of being a responsible partner includes having the practiced ability to effectively assist your partner in such situations. A responsible partner also considers the consequences of their actions with consideration to their partner's abilities. Does your partner have the practiced ability to extract himself when your now useless, broken carcass is hanging at the other end, or will he rot in the wind with you? Another thought I'll toss out here for consideration: Do we not have a certain ethical responibility to not lead a less experienced, less knowledgable partner into a situation that he can not get *himself* out of? -- Jerry Bargo University of Cincinnati CARS Information Systems Corp. Mountaineering Club *************** A day without tempting fate is a day wasted. *************** From Inez_Drixelius@maillink.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 25 16:32:35 EST 1995 Article: 5737 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5737 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!metro!OzEmail!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed.internetmci.com!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!lsa1mac9.berkeley.edu!user From: Inez_Drixelius@maillink.berkeley.edu (Inez Drixelius) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Followup-To: rec.climbing Date: 9 Jul 1995 02:13:51 GMT Organization: UC Berkeley Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lsa1mac9.berkeley.edu In article , ccschase@cnj.digex.net (Corporate Computer Systems) wrote: > I've always thought about what might happen if I fell on a large remote > cliff and became unconscious. My wife, a non-leader, would then be left > with the lump (me) on the other end of a rope five pitches up and two > more to go. What to do? Anybody have any ideas? > Daren, you have already received lots of good, sound advice from learned netters, but reading between the lines (or, perhaps being presumptious), I would like to suggest that rather than being a lump you should be a good husband and encourage your wife to learn more. Women can lead and master techniques, you know. If this doesn't work for you, find a partner with leading skills and rescue knowledge for the multipitch stuff. If she doesn't want to lead and/or learn, limit the spousal climbing to one pitch cragging. Don't stress on a multipitch route whether your lady can save your life. That doesn't sound like fun climbing to me. -- Inez Drixelius Berkeley, California From batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu Tue Jul 25 16:33:22 EST 1995 Article: 5962 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:5962 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!news.kei.com!newshost.marcam.com!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news From: batten@seismo.gps.caltech.edu (Jeff Batten) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: Unconscious Leader on Multi-pitch? Date: 15 Jul 1995 16:34:07 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3u8qlv$mka@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: borrego.gps.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ In article , jaffe@netcom.com (David H. Jaffe) says: > >Corporate Computer Systems (ccschase@cnj.digex.net) wrote: >: I've always thought about what might happen if I fell on a large remote >: cliff and became unconscious. My wife, a non-leader, would then be left >: with the lump (me) on the other end of a rope five pitches up and two >: more to go. What to do? I never really been able to figure out a good >: way for her to get the both of us out without some real big risks. I >: always use two nines on a climb like this, and would think the extra >: rope would benefit. Anybody have any ideas? > >Teach her to lead and take responsibility for herself or accept that you >may injure or kill her if you get hurt. >-- Teaching her to lead is not going to solve the problem. She should know the basics of self rescue and rope work. Alot of climbers never lead (i.e. girlfriends and wives). A non leading climber should know - How to tie off a injured leader and escape the belay. Setup anchors. Rappell to the ground in a safe manner and go for help. I do not expect me wife to rescue me if the above happens. For one, I would never put us in such a situation. But I see peolpe do it all the time. Shit- guys take their girlfriends up walls when they only know how to jumar. Jeff From ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu Tue Jul 25 16:46:20 EST 1995 Article: 6227 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:6227 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!mel.dit.csiro.au!merlin!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!simtel!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!ncar!kiowa.scd.ucar.edu!ilana From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: People who know what they're doing Date: 18 Jul 1995 21:44:28 GMT Organization: NCAR/UCAR Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3uh9vs$mav@ncar.ucar.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kiowa.scd.ucar.edu This is just intended to be a counterpoint to the various "scary newbie" and "non-leading partner" threads. A few days ago, a climber was rescued from Hallett Peak in Rocky Mtn National Park. He and his partner were climbing, the leader fell 35 feet and was knocked unconscious, the second climbed up to the leader, stabilized him, tied him into the rock, and rappelled down and hiked out to get help. Although there weren't many details in the newspaper article, it sounded like this guy knew what he was doing and did the right thing. -- /\ And though we willingly consented to his banishment, yet it was \_][ against our will -- Coriolanus, Act 4 scene 6 (Shakespeare) \__Ilana Stern * ilana@ncar.ucar.edu * http://www.ucar.edu/dss/ilana.html From eboltz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Jul 25 16:46:31 EST 1995 Article: 6556 of rec.climbing Xref: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU rec.climbing:6556 Path: news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!metro!OzEmail!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!jhunix1.hcf.jhu.edu!not-for-mail From: eboltz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Eric Scott Boltz) Newsgroups: rec.climbing Subject: Re: People who know what they're doing Date: 19 Jul 1995 09:55:29 -0400 Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3uj2sh$9lq@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> References: <3uh9vs$mav@ncar.ucar.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.220.2.5 In article <3uh9vs$mav@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes: >rock, and rappelled down and hiked out to get help. Although there weren't >many details in the newspaper article, it sounded like this guy knew what >he was doing and did the right thing. Good and positive note Ilana! The one thing I'd add to this is the little bit of trivia about these guys' ages...53 and 55! No old, bold climbers my ass! Oh, the 53 year old leader who fell would probably be dead if not for the fact that he was wearing his helmet...and the second who did the right thing also secured his leader to the rock so he wouldn't wander off and down in a daze if he came to. -E